A. Ashby, Esq. ([info]lynxara) wrote,
@ 2007-06-24 09:22:00
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Eight Things I Never Want to See in Comics Again
1. Super-Heroes referring to each other on a first-name basis while in costume.
-- Unless someone is apparently about to die, and their lover is screeching their name in terror. That's cool.
2. A major character die purely to clear the editorial decks for something that might sell better. (Lookin' at you, Flash #13.)
3. Men in super-villain costumes doing cocaine. Do you know how ridiculous that looks? At least have them take off their masks. Christ.
4. A female character getting mauled/mutilated just to piss off another male character. Alan Moore did it once, and it was okay. Everyone else has to stop now. It's getting kind of creepy.
5. "Realistic" dialogue that results in a lot of tedious panels where nothing happens. Lookin' at you, Bendis.
-- Don't give me "it's characterization" bullshit. It's not characterization unless it establishes something meaningful about the character. Bendis's dialogue frequently establishes very little due to its clipped nature. It would be fine with actors who could communicate with expressions and body language, but Bendis is rarely paired with artists able to draw on that level.
6. A scene or plotline missing from the title where it would make sense to be explored, instead shunted into a third-tier book with poor writing/art that you would only even know existed if you memorize the contents of Previews every month.
-- Bonus hate points for a scene being inserted in a comic where it makes no sense, with no editorial footnotes to explain the comic it's tying in with.
7. Weak, boring plotlines you're supposed to care about because Something Important is happening in them. Y'know, it's easier to just not read the comic and catch the inevitable synopsis to find about the Important Thing.
8. Major artists making big bucks when they can draw exactly two body types and roughly four expressions.
-- The four expressions are: :) >:O :( >:)
--- The body types are "hot woman" and "powerful guy".

BONUS: Something Comics Fans Should Never Do Again

1. React to any expression of female sexuality on a comic book cover as something that inherently denegrates the character's integrity or the character's ability to be perceived as an "ass-kicker". This is dangerous because it makes complaints about legitimately sexist garbage like the MJ statue and HFH #13 more likely to be ignored. Holy shit, people. Getting married doesn't instantly drain all the aggression out of a woman, it just makes for a fun month.
-- Corollary: You people remember Black Canary owned a flower shop once, right? Showing signs of traditional femininity should not be confused for signs of weakness. She can be married, like flowers and cakes, and still kick you in the teeth forty-three times. I mean, equating femininity with weakness equates masculinity with strength/superiority, and that's kind of self-loathing, now, isn't it ladies?
--- Actually, that's a book I'd like to read. Black Canary enjoying flowers and cakes and married life, and then beating the shit out of terrorists, that is. Include a recipe every issue and I'm there.
---- While we're at it, the implied sexuality of the Suydam parody of the Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane #1 cover isn't offensive. It's offensive that a guy has managed to build a career (or sorts) out of strip-mining cover ideas conceived by other, more talented artists. It's offensive Wizard is now paying this hack money to copy DC covers and add his crappy blurry zombie-fying treatment. I will rescind my assertion that Suydam is a hack when he draws his own god damn cover design, and it's remotely as good as the cover designs he's copied.
----- Don't bring that "it's a parody" bullshit to me, this schtick has long since become formula.



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[info]ninjadebugger
2007-06-24 02:31 pm UTC (link)
--- Actually, that's a book I'd like to read. Black Canary enjoying flowers and cakes and married life, and then beating the shit out of terrorists, that is. Include a recipe every issue and I'm there.

I would pay good cash money for this book, and I know we're not the only ones.

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[info]dark_victor
2007-06-24 05:09 pm UTC (link)
1. i cant agree on this one, i kinda like the feeling of super heros going like old cops "how's the wife and kids joe?" "same old old, how's the ward bob?" "still growing, mhm, seems the riped caliber is about to hit that bank, we better move"

bonus 1: i fully agree on this one, and the first example that comes to mind is molly from runaways, the kid is...well, a girly girl kid, yet she's able to turn anything to mush with her bare hands...let alone with a caffeine indused rush.

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[info]bensanaz
2007-06-24 06:15 pm UTC (link)
On #1, I have to say it sort of depends on situation. In the field, definitely. When they're hanging around on monitor duty shooting the breeze and only technically on-duty, it's a more mixed situation that depends on the characters.

(Although, that said, Booster and Beetle were as relaxed a pair of superbuddies as you'll find, and they referred to each other by super-names when they were in costume.)

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[info]fourel
2007-06-24 06:28 pm UTC (link)
#1 should only be allowed in extreme cases. JLA's World War III (the good one) had a bit where Superman was possessed by Mageddon. To bring him out of it, Batman went at him like "Clark. You're Superman, you're better than this! We're the JLA!"

And Superman broke out of it and mentioned "how much I hate it when you use that tone of voice, Bruce."

Otherwise, I agree. If the uniforms on, it's codenames all day.

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[info]markpoa
2007-06-25 01:41 am UTC (link)
I like the idea that Bruce wouldn't even let first names (except Alfred) be mentioned in the cave. Mellowed out or not, I don't think Batman should forget that rule.

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[info]vp19
2007-06-27 05:12 pm UTC (link)
1. Super-Heroes referring to each other on a first-name basis while in costume.
-- Unless someone is apparently about to die, and their lover is screeching their name in terror. That's cool.


Yep...it's like actors breaking out of character. The only time its use is justified is to advance the story (e.g., another character hears the name and realizes their identities, forcing the superheroes to confront this person before he or she can reveal it to the world -- or find a way to either make that person lose that part of memory or put on some sort of ruse to show the person is mistaken. Of course, that sounds like something out of a Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen comic circa 1961).

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[info]shinkou
2007-06-24 07:18 pm UTC (link)
#6 is why the comic "universes" are so annoying. Sure, they provide a sense of scale and a somewhat immersive experience, but now reading comics is like buying Magic: the Gathering cards when I just want to read Spider-Man or Captain America.

#4 is getting really disturbing. I had more detailed thoughts on that, but that's basically it in a nutshell.

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[info]kouaidou
2007-06-24 09:50 pm UTC (link)
5. "Realistic" dialogue that results in a lot of tedious panels where nothing happens. Lookin' at you, Bendis.
-- Don't give me "it's characterization" bullshit. It's not characterization unless it establishes something meaningful about the character. Bendis's dialogue frequently establishes very little due to its clipped nature. It would be fine with actors who could communicate with expressions and body language, but Bendis is rarely paired with artists able to draw on that level.


This is the paradox of Bendis. It's possible that his dialogue would be interesting and meaningful with an artist who actually gave a damn (as opposed to Frank Cho, who fails to care so much that he just cuts and pastes expressions when a Bendis dialogue block comes up, patiently waiting for another chance to point the camera at some ass).

On the other hand, from what I've read of his dialogue, it tends to come in such massive block form that to break it up enough so that each line got the expression it warrented would basically take up an entire issue. I'm not inclined to think that Bendis cares about the art enough to consider this; he's just as happy with C&Ped expressions as long as his dialogue gets through unscathed, assuming people will "get" whatever he wants them to get because his writing is Just That Good, Dammit.

In other words: comic art is there to provide pretty things for people to look at in between swaths of characterization, but the two don't actually interact.

(On an incidental note, this all just makes me think of the commentary on The Incredibles: "We get to animate two guys talking inside a car?! Oh my god, we never get to just animate two guys talking to each other...</i>")

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-24 10:55 pm UTC (link)
I should show you Ultimate Spider-Man sometime. That's much better than reading Mighty Avengers would lead you to believe Bendis is, and Mark Bagley's superhero stuff kicks the shit out of Frank Cho's.

(I really like Frank Cho's cartooning, but his "straight" work has been a solid disappointment to me. If only someone would make him reign it in a little...)

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[info]divalea
2007-06-26 04:47 pm UTC (link)
"You people remember Black Canary owned a flower shop once, right? Showing signs of traditional femininity should not be confused for signs of weakness. She can be married, like flowers and cakes, and still kick you in the teeth forty-three times."

WIN! I'll buy this! Shit, I'll make this!

"I mean, equating femininity with weakness equates masculinity with strength/superiority, and that's kind of self-loathing, now, isn't it ladies?"

I'm stopping at flowers. That's my happy place.

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-26 05:02 pm UTC (link)
"WIN! I'll buy this! Shit, I'll make this!"

Madam, I would buy ten copies.

Nay, eleven.

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[info]divalea
2007-06-27 01:58 am UTC (link)
You buy ten, I'll give you the eleventh.

I rather like the Black Canary wedding stuff I've seen so far. I couldn't get into Amanda Connor's Powergirl, because I felt the writers were trying to damn hard to justify the boob window. But Amanda's been a fave of mine for yearrrrs as a designer, and the cake cover is so cute I want to pinch its metaphorical cheeks.

The people who don't like it have outlined their reasons, I understand why they don't like it, but I don't agree.
Even if I am the Borg Queen of the Hive Vagina.

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-27 02:45 am UTC (link)
Borg Queen of the Hive Vagina

That phrase is beautiful and I need to bask in it for a moment.

Yeah, see, I liked the cake cover so much I showed it to my husband and a bunch of friends who aren't regular comics readers. When I found out there was a backlash against it at all, I was baffled.

I've read outlines of the arguments against it, and I'm still pretty baffled. I can see why people are unhappy about Benes's Escherian wedding cake cover, which is just bad art, but... man, I don't know. Shouldn't we all be yelling at Greg Horn or something?

I'm not super-familiar with Amanda Conner's work as an artist, but it's a name that I'm going to be scanning credits for now. I really enjoyed her sense of anatomy and the cartooning was perfect on the cake cover, and I'd like to see what she does with interiors.

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[info]divalea
2007-06-27 03:01 am UTC (link)
While you bask, I'll tell you I first became aware of Amadna's art in the early-mid ninties. She was the cover designer for the otherwise Mattel-mandated-bland Barbie comic put out by Marvel. They were fantastic!

Benes' cover...le sigh. That's problematic in a lot of ways. As for Horn (and Greg Land, while we're at it), I am astonished they still work for Marvel. I do have a soft spot for Horn, who was ready to huck it all about five years ago. He decied to stay in the game, went all-out, and got Marvel work. I'm not crazy about what he's done, but I will always respect that he worked hard for what he got, and had the guts to to take it on.
Land is just dreadful. I wonder when Marvel will actually enforce that part of the contract about not using others' copywrighted work. Hmmm.

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-27 03:31 am UTC (link)
Hm, interesting. I grew up reading crappy Star comics; I may need to start trawling quarter boxes for them again.

Since I doubt you know much about me, I'll qualify the Horn comment: As a general rule, I may disrespect a freelancer's work, but I don't ever disrespect effort, because I freelance in a different industry. I just don't bring it up in these conversations; I dunno Horn as a person, and can't pretend to pass judgement on him. It's more that there's a market for what he's doing now that bugs me.

(After all, if Marvel asked me to write, I dunno, Marvel Boobs-In-One Starring Naked Spider-Woman tomorrow? I'd just want to know how soon after publication I'd get the check.)

I know a lot of fans confuse the work and the creator, and probably couldn't conceive of Horn as a guy who's really struggled to get where he is. But honestly, hearing that he totally overhauled his style to stay in the game five years ago explains a lot about how his work is turning out now, and probably why I don't like it. Maybe he'll have another transformation soon, who knows. :)

(To tangent: I do disrespect creator-driven shipping delays, but only when there's solid information to know who's really responsible for it. And generally there isn't, so I get sort of annoyed when fans start accusing so-and-so of being unprofessional, when it could just as easily be a delay at some other point in the Marvel pipeline. Ultimates 13, for example, I suspect was caused by figuring out the logistics of the goofy eight-page fold-out rather than Bryan Hitch, as the entire interblagotron assumed.)

Land is... Land almost doesn't offend me, his stuff is just so risible and transparent. I mean, I've seen some almost-good Horn covers that demonstrate a solid knowledge of cover design and dynamic art. He could do good stuff if he felt like it. Land... I think he drew a cool monster once. Maybe. Beyond that, I can only think of all the good times he's given the internet. I mean, if I think about how depressing it is that he makes an inconceivable pagerate for his tracings, that's depressing, but that way lies madness.

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[info]divalea
2007-06-27 01:50 pm UTC (link)
No worries about Horn.
Land offends me from an artistic standpoint. He not only uses other people's work (and porn is work, too) to make his, he gets money for it.

It is kind of funny he gets money for it. It'd be interesting to see the reaction in the larger media to the documented use of adult material to make "kid's comics."

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-27 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Get one of the comparisons on BoingBoing. It would explode overnight.

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[info]twistdfateangel
2007-06-27 12:05 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, this is a cute idea.

I mentioned that to this peryficgirl broad and she deleted my response and banned me.

All I said was "I think it's cute. Why can't a heroine be feminine and an ass kicker?"

I would totally buy a maquette of that cake cover for my bachelorette party.

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[info]gailsimone1
2007-06-26 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Um...

I enjoyed the list and all, but how is this different from how BOP has been for ages? Black Canary DOES enjoy feminine things, she's mentioned flowers several times, she CURRENTLY has a floral shop...as for cakes, well, she's more into ice cream.

The book you're describing has been on the stands for a good while, until her recent departure.

Gail

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-26 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, when I wrote this list, one of the things swirling about in my head was a perfectly psycho LJ entry a friend linked me to, complaining the wedding specials were horrible and sexist because they ruined Black Canary's image as an asskicker somehow. Because she was doing traditionally feminine things?

It was odd and bothersome and made me cranky, because the comments thread had a lot of agreeing comments. This suggests an outspoken contingent of Black Canary fans who aren't aware of some basic elements of the character. It's like arguing Peter Parker's bad luck is much too repetitive and implausible, and how dare editorial allow the character to be portrayed in such a terribly unrealistic fashion.

To be honest, I'm no particular fan of Black Canary. I like her in concept and as a Justice Leaguer, but have never sought out solo stories about her. I've read a few issues of Birds of Prey, and the elements you described weren't mentioned in them (but I believe they were Dixon issues, not yours). I never cared to follow the book after that, because it appeared to be another satellite Bat-book, and all of my attempts to enjoy any satellite Bat-books have ended in frustration regardless of how well-reviewed they are by the online comics fan community.

(I do not know if BoP is actually regarded as such by DC, it simply gave the impression of being such.)

Having never read your BoP run, I can hardly say whether or not it is the book I want to read. I have a deadline shortly about to eat my head, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't immediately go out and read them (but you have piqued my curiosity, and may get around to it when my life calms down a little).

I can say, though, if you wonder why more women who might really enjoy it aren't reading Birds of Prey, I would have to point to the covers and promotional artwork. There was nothing about the way that book was promoted that ever gave me the impression it was something I would particularly enjoy as a female reader who likes to read about high-adventuring women. It may very well be the best book in the world for a female superhero fan, but to be honest, until I started reading comics blogs about six months ago, I didn't even know it was still being published. (I'm a lapsed comic fan, you see.)

A final little disclaimer: anything I write on my LiveJournal is intended mostly for the consumption of my flist. I do post unlocked entries, so I don't at all mind getting linked (even by a hyooge site like When Fangirls Attack) or having people drop by to comment. But this isn't my comics blog for making statements on the Industry, it's really just me braindumping aobut whatever I'm thinking about at the moment before I get back to work.

I'm really flattered someone actually in the industry stopped by to read this, and you have every right to defend your work here. I hope we get a good conversation out of it. But ultimately, this list was written purely to amuse and provoke discussion with my friends. Whether or not it entertains, enlightens, or enrages anyone else isn't something I'm ever going to be too worried about.

(I will be all "Holy shit, dude! GAIL SIMONE POSTED IN MY BLOG!" to my friends, though! Believe it or not, I'm mostly familiar with your work through your Simpsons Comics stories, which I of course enjoyed.)

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[info]goggle_kid
2007-06-26 08:59 pm UTC (link)
Regarding #3... I actually thought it was a kinda neat plot twist at the end of Flash #212 to reveal that Mirror Master was a psycho druggie. Thing is 1. it worked in the context of the story and 2. it's the kinda plot trick that only works once. Showing him shooting up in subsequent appearances like Countdown only revealed how ridiculous his Silver Age costume looks.

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-26 09:08 pm UTC (link)
TBH, this is part of my problem with Dr. RapeLight, too. The man's costume is incredibly ridiculous. Having him wandering around babbling gleefully about all the raping he's done and theoretically may do in the future is really just hilarious.

You can have your Silver Age authenticity OR the overblown grit and violence, DC. Doing both kinda doesn't work.

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[info]lolcomics
2007-06-27 01:53 am UTC (link)
rrr...rrr..."Rapelight?"

BWAAAAHAHAHAHA!

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-27 02:38 am UTC (link)
I can't be the only person who noticed that, after Identity Crisis, raping things has basically become one of Dr. Light's superpowers. He's a serious villain now.

The emblem on his costume's chest should be changed to a stylized glowing erection to symbolize the change.

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[info]goggle_kid
2007-06-27 04:27 am UTC (link)
I have trouble taking Identity Crisis seriously after Kyle Baker parodied it so savagely in that last issue of Plastic Man.

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[info]mysticeden
2007-06-27 07:09 pm UTC (link)
Actually, that's a book I'd like to read. Black Canary enjoying flowers and cakes and married life, and then beating the shit out of terrorists, that is. Include a recipe every issue and I'm there.

I want this now 0_0

Also great list! Especially the first one ugh... it's been driving me nuts! And have you notice in the spiderman movies EVERYONE knows its hom! and he takes his mask of all the time and swings around! gah! ok movie i know but still -_-

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-27 08:31 pm UTC (link)
So, I happened to see Spider-Man 3 in a theater on a weeknight, late, with my husband. We had the theater basically to ourselves.

Early in the movie, I turn to him and say, "Bet $5 he can't make it through the last fight with his mask on."

He gave me a withering look and took the popcorn out of my hands.

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[info]mysticeden
2007-06-27 08:34 pm UTC (link)
haha geez...Maybe the people of that city have short term memory loss? So none of them remember what his face looks like...-_-

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[info]lavode
2007-06-27 07:59 pm UTC (link)
Agree absolutely on #4. I just finished Preacher, and while the creators obviously took pains to show what a tough, cool, ass-kicking chick Tulip was, her main function in the story was to give Jesse someone to protect, worry about and avenge (and she certainly didn't seem to have any goals or desires that didn't involve him.) Since the comic spent so much time exploring and critiquing traditional masculinity , I was disappointed about that.

Showing signs of traditional femininity should not be confused for signs of weakness. She can be married, like flowers and cakes, and still kick you in the teeth forty-three times. I mean, equating femininity with weakness equates masculinity with strength/superiority, and that's kind of self-loathing, now, isn't it ladies?

Of course you can like flowers and cakes, want to get married, and still be a badass superhero (at least Sailor Jupiter does all of the above…) It's just that, speaking for myself and nobody else, I'm really tired of seeing these things associated with being female. If it's been established that Black Canary's the kind of character who enjoys those things, great, but I hope there are female characters who don't do them as well. And maybe even male characters who do.

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-27 08:39 pm UTC (link)
Your criticism of Preacher is what kept taking me out of the book, and at the time I didn't understand it because I knew the writing was good. Since then I've realized Ennis really just writes men's adventure in comic book form, and that's okay. I do wish some critics could ramp back their praise of Ennis and realize there's a lot of people his work is just going to be lost on. It's "niche", to use a gaming term.

It's just that, speaking for myself and nobody else, I'm really tired of seeing these things associated with being female. If it's been established that Black Canary's the kind of character who enjoys those things, great, but I hope there are female characters who don't do them as well. And maybe even male characters who do.

I can't argue with that. (Actually, I'm inclined to agree. More variety in character types rarely leads to poorer stories or less interesting characters.)

I guess what bothers me is the implication that, provided you just keep the symbols of traditional femininity away from a female character, you have a progressive and enlightened female character sort of by default. And, well, not necessarily. You may just end up with the stereotypical woman from a men's adventure novel, and that's hardly a step forward. I think men's adventure stereotype is so easy to _project_ desires to see strong female characters onto, without actually being strong, that it becomes kind of dangerous. You can end up trading one dull, sexist stereotype for another, as it were.

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[info]lavode
2007-06-28 03:12 pm UTC (link)
I won't say anything about superhero comics in general since I barely read any, but going by the blogs I read, more variety couldn't hurt. And it's nice to hear I'm not the only one.

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[info]actionranger
2007-06-29 02:39 am UTC (link)
Arthur Suydam? You really think one of the people responsible for ushering in an artistic revolution in comics in the 80's is a hack?

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[info]lynxara
2007-06-29 02:50 am UTC (link)
My acquaintance with Suydam's art is:

1) Marvel Zombies covers.
2) Assorted other Marvel covers with very boring layouts.

This is likely because I did not read comics in the 80's, and did not in the 90's ever read a history of comics that considered Suydam important. After that I lapsed out of comics for awhile, and am only as of late familiar with Suydam's work.

If he has a grand 80's artistic heritage of which I am not aware, you may feel free to make with the links and edumicate me. I did say I would take it back if I saw proof he could draw a good cover on his own! (Or, if I didn't, I'm saying it now.)

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